But, the point is, we recently got into a discussion such as this over ICQ. This one was about life and choosing the correct "Path" of life. As often happens, this discussion meanders a bit and so covers many topics. The simile "Life Is Like a Path" was always used however, giving an interesting unity to things coming right from the top of our heads...

Gena:   happiness comes in enjoying the journey.... *L*

Ole:    Uh oh. Have I made a convert?? ;^P

Gena:    i don't think so -- i still don't believe that happiness is the meaning of life... how can you be happy if you're not on a journey if happiness is the side-effect of the journey? *grin*

Ole:    Ah...but we are always on a journey Grasshopper...

Gena:    yes, but a journey must have a beginning point and an ending point, or it is not a journey at all. it is just a stroll through the park.

Ole:    But what if the park is infinite?
And birth and death seem pretty good to me (but that's my worldview...)

Gena:    yes but do we spend our lives seeking death, then?

Ole:    No, since the end point of the journey is not important

Gena:    ah, but if the ending is not important, than we are not journeying, because journeying implies that we are going somewhere.

Ole:    Yes. We are continually heading somewhere, and the general direction we go in can matter, but the final destination is unknown, and probably cannot be known by mere mortals such as ourselves.

Gena:    perhaps we can know, however. perhaps there are signs on the roads telling us some details of the journey or even some possible ending point of the road. perhaps whoever built the roads had in mind where the roads ought to go and left behind some clue for the travelers to get an idea (not a belief, mind you ;) ) of what was ahead.

Ole:    Ah.....But there are many signs and many of them conflict with each other, since many agencies claim to have built that road.

Gena:    depending on whose writing you read.

yes, there is much writing, and yes, we must choose, but not all roads lead to the same end!

Ole:    Exactly, so each one of us much choose our own path and choose which signs to follow, for better or worse.

They certainly don't, but we simply must use our best judgement, since we have nothing else to go on.

Gena:    We do have road signs, and the writing on them can be traced back to the writers. if we find a writer trust-worthy, we could follow that one's writing.

Ole:    But unfortunately, there are many, many writers that appear trustworthy, and the same problem repeats itself.

Gena:    then perhaps we should test the roads? if we follow a road and we find it is a dead end, we can try another. but if we follow a road and it is straight and true...

Ole:    Certainly. That is simply using our faculty of reason and common sense.

(and not even using signs!)

Gena:   but, if we ignore the signs and ignore the writers, then every fork will be just as difficult as the fork before. why should we ignore the advice of everyone, when it is possible to test out one of the writers, and then use that knowledge the next time we come across a fork?

Ole:    That is true. That is why we should read EVERYBODY'S signs, since each one is going to give us some knowledge. If nothing else besides to recognize what is false and give us a glimmer of the pattern of truth.

Gena:   yes, this is very true. if one lies to us once, we will know not to takes its advice the next time.

Ole:    But one must be careful, because even deluded signs can be correct sometimes. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Gena:   *Gena steps aside to think about the clock for a moment*

Gena:   but, you are right about the mis-leaders sometimes leading in the right direction. yes, but if others have written, as well, and we have tested the others, then we have their help in the situation as well.

Ole:    All I'm saying is to not discount the misleaders and do the opposite of what they say all the time.

Gena:   *wrong clocks aren't necessarily right twice a day ... backwards clocks are, though! *grin**

Ole:    I think caution is needed though even on the tested signs. Tested sources may not be entirely correct on all subjects. In fact, its expected that it will turn out that way.

Gena:   so, in all situations, think. but, i wonder, in times when we have no knowledge of the paths, and our emotions tell us something, and i don't totally trust my own emotions, what do i do then? that is why i am glad of the signs and those that i have tested and trust.

Ole:    Well, it is true that one cannot usually trust emotions too much. But one must always take the signs written by others and apply them to the signs written by still others, one's personal experience, and one's own best rational judgement. Only then, when all of those factors combined, can what the person hopes the best path for the person be reached (and that person can always be wrong too)

Gena:   my best rational judgement tells me i am guilty of things i have not done.

Ole:    Is that your rational judgement, or is that your emotions creeping in to play?

Gena:    that is rational. cause and effect. i did something, and something bad was the result. if anything, that is more logic than emotion.

Ole:    Yes, but that is a logical fallacy you see.

Gena:    how so?

Ole:    Correlation without causation. I watch MASH. A person is not nice to another person 1000 miles way. Therefore I should not watch MASH?

Gena:    but, one can argue, that i DID cause the effect. if i had not made my action, the result would not have occurred. the two are directly connected to each other.

Ole:    But the reaction was only a symptom of other causes not related to you at all.

That you happened to be a trigger at one certain point in time matters not, since it would have happened at some point later or expressed itself at some other point in a different way anyway.

The REAL cause lies somewhere else

Gena:    so, how am i to know if there are other causes that i am not aware of? how do i know, when i reach a path, if my taking a step on that path will put the weight on it to cause its bridge to cave in?

Ole: Take the wide view of things. Do not focus on only the path, that will lead to no good. Look at the things around the path. Look at what the path is supported by, test the path out with a stick. Ask other travelers about their experience on that path, but do not just walk down a path blindly.

Gena:    but, i can't see all those things. it's like seeing the future. i can't know those things all the time. if i could know them, i would not even need a path to begin with, i would blaze my own.

Ole:    That is true. We cannot see the entirety of the path, since that is like looking beyond the horizon, but that does not mean that we cannot see fuzzily up to the horizon and get as many facts as we can as we go along.

Gena:    and when traps have been hidden from us, and the path has been made beautiful up to the horizon, and parts of the path are recommended by others and there is some other person or source that maybe isn't the most trust-worthy, but i don't know that yet...

Ole:    Well, falling into existing traps on the first leg of the journey is inevitable. In fact, falling into traps the entire way is also inevitable. But using past experience and one's best judgement, we attempt to avoid as many traps as we can. We do the best we can, and that is all we can do.

Gena:    *nods* there comes a point when even the signs have been rubbed out... and there are times when even the correct roads have pit-falls that cannot be avoided.

but i still hold that my best is not and cannot ever be good enough.

Ole:    That is true. Which is why we simply must do the best we can and hope.

Good enough for what? The perfect path?

Gena:    yes. i know i'll wander from it, and i'll not want to take it even when i know it is the perfect path. i know i can't possibly reason it out on my own every time, because there are times when even logic is faulty, though it seems to equate on paper. i know that i can't see all the way down the road and i know that the road is going to be hard. i know that i can't even see the road under my feet most of the time. i know i need the signs.

Ole:    Quite a bit there. Perhaps I'll take it one at a time. :^)

Gena:    okay. : )

Ole:    But who expects you to take the perfect path? the first time you fall in a trap, you've failed forever, but that is a necessary part of learning.

Gena:    no, i've not failed forever. the perfect path doesn't have to be the only one i ever take. so long as it's the one i aim for and end on.

Ole:    Ah, but the thing is, as you've said, the best we can do is aim for the perfect path, since no person can achieve it. and there is nothing wrong with that.

Gena:    i on my own cannot achieve the perfect path. but, by following the correct signs (using the help of the writer) can find and follow the perfect path. that doesn't mean i'm perfect myself, but i have someone helping me then that is good and true, and that will cover my errors.

Ole:    Aye, but there's the rub. Where are the correct signs? Are there any correct signs at all?

Gena:    who made that perfect path? if there are paths at all, do they all lead to nowhere? one must have been the original, leading to the right place, and that is the one i'm looking for.

Ole:    Just as we are talking about paths in abstract terms now, who is to say that the perfect path is anything but an abstraction created by human minds itself?

Gena:    as i said, if there are paths at all. if there really are no paths, then all of this is meaningless. but, if there are paths, why would there be paths if they lead to nowhere? if there are not paths, then we are all wandering aimlessly and just imagining paths beneath our feet, and signs and perfection don't matter anymore.

Ole:    Ah, but you are still talking about paths as if they were externally defined. What if each person literally creates his or her own path, rather than following one among many pre-created ones? What if the signs are there, and the person him(her)self sets them up along his or her path?

Gena:    if i am creating my own path and you are creating your own path, and others are creating their own paths, can we possibly be leading ourselves to anything? if a path is created to start in one place and end in another, the creator of the path must know what those two places are. can i conceive these of myself, and, if i can, can anyone else also conceive the same thing for himself? and if so, can that place that we conceive really be a goal worth achieving, as it is the creation of our own minds and therefore as flawed as we are?

also, if i create my own path, why do i need signs at all?

Ole:    AAah! Not more points to answer!

I'm still re-reading the FIRST paragraph! ;^)

Gena:    *sorry* *ducks and hides* : )

*sheepish grin* sorry.... too...much...thought...going...on....

Ole:    Okay. Let's see. I'll just start with the first I guess (can't do too much else. :^)

Gena:    okay. (that's more than fair)

Ole:    1) The creator of the path may have no knowledge whatsoever of where he or she started and where he or she is going. (S)he may think that he is going a specific destination but he may be wrong. The best he can do is aim for what he thinks is right.

Gena: *smiles* you don't have to be so politically correct... i don't mind if you just use an inclusive "He"....

*L*

Ole:    2) The Goal to achieve is worthwhile in each person's own mind. Perhaps you don't believe that another person's final destination is worthwhile, and you can attempt to convince him or her of that, but that is all, since each person is in control of his path that he is creating.

3) Yes, the path's destinations may be flawed, but again, we are doing the best we can, and we can't really expect more than that.

4) Signs suggest ways to construct the good path. What that good path is each person must decide for himself and must build for himself.

(okay)

Gena:    hmm... i think there's a premise that i start my argument with that might not be widely accepted. i believe that there is an ultimate truth. there is one goal. there is one place that the path (or paths, or aimless wanderings or whatever we are doing here) ought to end. I believe this, because i believe that there is something outside of me that is better than me and knows more than me about the matter and i believe that on my own, i can't possibly have any idea of this thing outside of me and so, i can't create my own path to it. i don't think i'm good enough to do that. i don't think anyone is good enough to do that. therefore, i don't think i can make my own path, but i see that there are paths because i see that other people believe and follow paths. i think we don't have to create our own goal and we don't have to create our own paths. heck, what deity in any religion can expect that of its followers? unless it created its followers perfect, it can't expect us to figure it all out on our own!

Ole:    But there is the crux of the matter. The difference between belief and reality. You believe that paths preexist. Other people believe in other preexisting paths and other people believe they have to draw the paths themselves. What is the reality of the situation? The only way we can find this is through reason. And then we can only be reasonably sure of such matters, and that is the best we can do.

Gena:    but i also believe my reason is flawed.

Ole:    It most likely is, but it is the best tool we have, since anything else is blind acceptance to whatever a certain set of road signs tell us.

Gena:    what if it isn't blind? what if there is something i know that is true and that has been proven to me, and so i see that there are paths and signs and i know that the writing is true when it comes from a certain hand? *sigh* i guess THIS is what i see as the real crux of the problem. in the words of Eli....

"... i had an experience i can't prove it, i can't even explain it. but everything that i know as a human being,
everything that i am tells me that it was real. i was given something wonderful -- something that changed me forever; a vision of the universe that tells us, undeniably, how tiny and insignificant, and how rare and precious we all are.
A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater than ourselves; that we are NOT, that NONE of
us are alone. i wish i could share that. i wish that everyone, if even for one moment, could feel that awe and humility and hope. but, that continues to be my wish."

Gena:    ack, i've got to get off-line! i've been on WAY to long. *sigh* hey, this was a really good discussion! *hugs*

Ole:    It was. Do you mind if I keep it? :^) *Hugs* (and just when I was getting to a good response! Sigh. :^) But then our conversation will never end)